In a short twenty-year span, A’Lelia Bundles has written four biographies that document her larger-than-life, from rags-to-riches ancestors. These exceptional forebears were Madam C. J. Walker, the Black hair and beauty care pioneer, her fun-loving philanthropic daughter, A’Lelia Walker, and their daughter and granddaughter, Mae Robinson Perry, nèe Fairy Mae Bryant, who perpetuated their luminous legacy. Thoroughly and thoughtfully, each are chronicled in “Madam C. J. Walker: Entrepreneur” (Chelsea House 1991); “All about Madam C. J. Walker” (Walker/Cardin Publishing, 2017); “On Her own Ground: The Life and Times of Madam C. J. Walker” (Scribner, 2001): and “Joy Goddess: A’Lelia Walker and the Harlem Renaissance” (Simon and Schuster 2025).
Acclaimed as a journalist, news producer, and author, recipient of numerous awards and honors, a fellow of The American Academy of Arts and Sciences, vice chair emerita of Columbia University’s Board of Trustees, and chair emerita of the board of the National Archives Foundation, now it is Ms. Bundles turn to shine. In anticipation of her newest understanding, “Joy Goddess: A’Lelia Walker and the Harlem Renaissance,” we at the AmNews had a few questions.
AmNews: You have expressed disappointment with “Self Made,” the 2020 Netflix/Warner Bros. series adapted from your biography, “On Her Own Ground: The Life and Times of Madam C. J. Walker.” What most troubled you about the series?
A’Lelia Bundles: I’ve spoken and written often about my impressions, especially in Andscape.com (formerly TheUndefeated.com), in “Netflix’s ‘Self Made’ Suffers from Self Inflicted Wounds,” — and for Variety. I want to be clear that I think Octavia Spencer did an excellent job of embodying Madam C. J. Walker’s persona whenever she appeared on screen. I also very much appreciate the makeup artists, hair stylists, set and costume designers, and many members of the cast who worked so hard on the series. But I was not happy that key aspects of Madam Walker’s life were distorted. I was disappointed that the showrunners and scriptwriters chose — despite my objections during the scripting process — to lean into stale tropes about Black women “catfighting” with one another and racial stereotypes that cast Black men as shady criminals. I really was hoping for an inspirational story more along the lines of the movie “Hidden Figures.” Unfortunately, I think the script too often veered toward “The Real Housewives of Atlanta.”
AmNews: As now, looking from the outside in, the lives led by the great can seem idyllic. Both in her lifetime and today, what do you consider to be the greatest misconceptions about A’Lelia Walker’s lifestyle?
A’Lelia Bundles: Some Harlem Renaissance historians and biographers have caricatured A’Lelia Walker and reduced her to a dilettantish party girl. One historian inexplicably claimed that she spent the 1920s “playing bridge.” While A’Lelia Walker did enjoy a good game of bridge as well as a good round of poker, she was also very much involved in promoting artists and the arts and in raising money for a range of causes, from an ambulance for Black soldiers during World War I to a community center for Harlem children. Because of her inheritance and her three homes, she had the means and the venues to serve in the role of convener by bringing together people from uptown and downtown, from Africa, Europe, the Caribbean, and America, from the arts and fashion, from business and politics.
After reading hundreds of pages of her letters and having interviewed a dozen of her close friends during the 1980s, I was puzzled by the gratuitous portrayal some authors have offered. Unfortunately, those inaccurate narratives have become entrenched after being repeated and unchallenged in dozens of books and articles. I do hope that “Joy Goddess” will provide a fresh perspective and allow readers to move past the myths because I think they’ll discover an interesting, complex person who helped shape the social and cultural scene of the Harlem Renaissance.
AmNews: Your description of the unusual circumstances and commonality about the life experience of A’Lelia Walker and her companion Mayme White was both touching and poignant. When your great-grandmother died, Ms. White sought a few hundred dollars in assistance from her attorney, and he refused. This led to a lawsuit and an appeal, won by the Walker estate. Do you think that A’Lelia Walker did intend to remember White? And, even if she did not, might it not have been better for all involved to have a settlement?
A’Lelia Bundles: I think you’re asking me to speculate on what might have been. I am not a fan of what is called “critical fabulation,” where writers project their personal expectations and impose their desired or imagined outcome onto a situation. What I do know from A’Lelia Walker’s letters is that she was very intentional and specific about who was mentioned in her will and what she wished to bequeath and to whom.
AmNews: Adhering strictly to fact, you assert that there is no known evidence to support a romantic relationship between Walker and White. But you’ve seen the one-bedroom apartment they shared at 80 Edgecombe Avenue. And, you are also familiar with John Claude Baker’s assertion in “Josephine Baker: The Hungry Heart,” his biography of his guardian, Josephine Baker. He said that many Black women during the Harlem Renaissance found themselves so badly treated by husbands and boyfriends that intimacy with each other was often a kind of emotional consolation and therapy. Despite the lack of corroborating letters or diaries discovered during your exhaustive research, do you think any might be discovered to bolster reminiscences related to me from Bobby Short and Marvin Smith?
A’Lelia Bundles: Again, I think you’re asking me to speculate and to engage in “critical fabulation” where no reliable evidence or documentation exists. As a biographer who writes nonfiction, I rely on primary source research, which in this case included interviews with A’Lelia Walker’s friends, hundreds of pages of her letters, and thousands of newspaper articles, as well as legal documents, transcripts, and depositions. During my career as a television news producer, I learned to follow leads and to take the extra step of corroborating stories to avoid repeating rumors and myths. I kept an open mind throughout my many years of research as I explored A’Lelia Walker’s marriages to John Robinson, Dr. Wiley Wilson, and Dr. James Arthur Kennedy, as well as her friendships with Mayme White, Edna Lewis Thomas, Geraldyn Dismond (Gerri Major), Bessye Bearden, and Lucille Green Randolph.
AmNews: For me, the most fascinating discovery you brought to light was the seriousness of A’Lelia Walker’s stroke and how early it was, long before she died. What, for you, was the most unexpected thing you uncovered?
A’Lelia Bundles: Certainly, A’Lelia Walker’s stroke in 1924 and her ongoing health issues played a role in how she navigated her personal life and business obligations during the last seven years of her life. I don’t know that I would say it was “unexpected,” but I found much more evidence of her support of artists, writers, musicians, and actors than is commonly known. I was glad to be able to discover granular details about her inspiration for creating the Dark Tower, the cultural salon she opened in October 1927, and the role it played in the life of Harlemites. Having her travel diary from her trip to Paris, London, Monte Carlo, Nice, Rome, Cairo, Palestine, and Addis Ababa in 1921 and 1922 gave me a much clearer sense of her international travels and friendships.
AmNews: The Walker Women fared rather better in their efforts at dynasty building than W. E. B. DuBois. Were they around today, what do you imagine they would do differently? Was their greatest impact the unique way they helped to motivate and empower Black women? What do you hope will be their legacy in times to come?
A’Lelia Bundles: I do think that Madam Walker had a great impact during her lifetime of empowering women to be financially independent, politically aware community leaders. I’m really pleased that her story still inspires entrepreneurs and sets an example for philanthropists and social justice activists. I love that she has become such an icon that a Madam Walker Barbie doll was created a few years ago.
I really see A’Lelia Walker’s legacy as that of a social impresario whose charisma and gift as a convener allowed her to create welcoming spaces for a wide range of people. I love that her Dark Tower is an essential part of any account of the Harlem Renaissance.
For these forthright and informative responses, I want to extend a personal thank you to A’Lelia Bundles. To discover more about her remarkable family, past work, and forthcoming projects, be sure to visit her website at aleliabundles.com and follow her at @aleliabundles. Coming up on June 9, the century-old Schomburg Center will be hosting the talk and book-signing “Joy Goddess: A Book Launch and Conversation” where all will be afforded the chance to meet Ms. Bundles in person and have her inscribe her books. To register, visit eventbrite.com.